In the How I Built It podcast episodes, you’ll get insight from small business owners and developers on how they built their products, from idea to execution. You will learn real processes for launching, and evolving your business over time.
Gordon Stannis 0:00
People aren’t asking for this yet. And to which we would say, Well, you know that old Henry Ford quote, “If he asked people what they wanted they’d say a faster horse” Sometimes you got to lead you got to explain the art of the possible and open people’s eyes.
Joe Casabona 0:14
That was Gordon Stannis. Like last week’s guest, Colin, Gordon helped create a Smart Lighting System. But where Colin wanted to improve our homes. Gordon wanted to improve our experience in parking garages. This is a super interesting conversation, where we cover both hardware and software, mesh networks, and much more.
Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of ‘How I Built It’ the podcast that asks How did you build that today? My guest is Gordon Stannis, the Director of Design and Strategy at Twisthink. Gordon, how are you today?
Gordon Stannis 3:00
I’m doing great. How are you doing today?
Joe Casabona 3:02
I am doing really well. So thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for working through some of the pre-recording technical difficulties and at home difficulty; some of the hazards of working from home. I appreciate you joining us today. And I was wondering if you could just tell the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Gordon Stannis 3:22
I am a degreed trained industrial designer that has worked in the automotive industry, contract furniture industry, consumer electronics industry. And for the past two decades, I’ve been leading the design and strategy teams at a firm called Twisthink in Western Michigan and we work for Fortune 500, Fortune 100 and in just about every market imaginable. Designing great user experiences and products for them that typically involve heavy technology component.
Joe Casabona 3:55
That’s great. And so that’s that sounds incredibly interesting. I’m sure working for companies of such a big size, have a bunch of complexities, that a lot of the listeners who are freelancers or smaller agencies may not be too familiar with what is it like working for a Fortune 100 company.
Gordon Stannis 4:16
It’s actually great. One of the reasons that we rarely work for individual inventors and smaller companies is they really don’t have the slightest idea what it takes. How hard it is to take an idea and develop it appropriately and tune it towards your stakeholders and then get it into the marketplace so that it stands a chance of winning. It’s a time-intensive capital intensive endeavor. And really only the Fortune 500s and 100s. And occasionally, we try to connect with a VC funded organization or a university tech outpost once per year. It’s not necessarily a money-making venture as much as it stretches us and helps us grow. Keeping us connected with a different audience. But larger organizations have done this before. There they have systems and teams and expense accounts that can bear the burden.
Joe Casabona 5:17
So you work with individual inventors to help bring their stuff to market? I think that’s really interesting because I’m in the software field. It’s easy for me to say on a Friday; “Oh, I have this idea for some piece of software, and if I decide I’m going to work through the weekend, I could have a working copy of my idea by Monday. Not really the case with the work that you do, right?
“In fact, there was a project that we did a couple of years ago, where we had one guy full time with the support of our team, cracking the code for an algorithm that would discern between the four different strokes that a competitive swimmer would do in a pool.”
Gordon Stannis 5:48
No, A lot of our work is hardware intensive and software-intensive. Really deep UIs and really complex user experiences. In fact, there was a project that we did a couple of years ago where we had one guy full time with the support of our team, cracking the code for an algorithm that would discern between the four different strokes that a competitive swimmer would do in a pool. So the goal was to have these wrist-worn sensors determine, without pressing any buttons, whether they’re doing one of the four different strokes that swimmers do. So you think about that the fact that its 95th percentile male, fifth percentile female, and everything in between. and that data set was so vast, it took a year to figure out reliably who was doing what,
Joe Casabona 6:41
Wow, that’s incredible. I think about that stuff with things like the Apple Watch, for example. detecting falls and how much testing and how much data gathering needs to go into that.
Gordon Stannis 6:54
I think about the Apple Watch all the time. When I brush my teeth. I’m very aware of the fact that someone has access to how many minutes I brush my teeth every day, and how many strokes in which direction I do. I don’t know that that data has any value. But Apple has access to that information. They know that it’s about seven o’clock in the morning, and he is a left-handed person… there’s a pretty good chance he’s brushing his teeth right now. I wonder if any dental companies would like to have information like this from millions of people?
Joe Casabona 7:26
Wow, that is super interesting. And something I hadn’t thought of because my watch doesn’t go on until after I brush my teeth. But that is very interesting. So today, we’re going to talk about a specific product. We’re going to talk about the Limelight Lighting control system.
So why don’t you tell us a little bit about what that is?
“So we made an observation. we generated an insight based on our oftentimes insatiable curiosity and we said there’s, there’s something broken, there’s something wrong, I wonder if that could be fixed.”
Gordon Stannis 7:49
So Limelight is a very unique project. It’s a once in a decade kind of a project. For us, our day job is working for large organizations that need innovation. They either forgot how to do it themselves, So they call us up to help remind them of how that how the innovation process works. Or we have some design or technical skills that they lack, or that they just need new bandwidth, they need more bandwidth. They’re extremely busy, and they can’t get all their work done. So they would call us. Limelight was different. We intentionally decided to step into the shoes of our customers. We are always saying that it’s very important that you constantly invest in innovation so that your business is sustainable. We personally invested ourselves. So we made an observation. We generated an insight based on our oftentimes insatiable curiosity and we said there’s something broken, there’s something wrong, I wonder if that could be fixed. And that gave birth to the idea that his Limelight?
Joe Casabona 8:57
Wow, that’s incredible. So you generally do work with other companies. But in this case, you decided that you guys had an idea and you decided to put it bring it to market?
Gordon Stannis 9:14
Yeah, in fact, we had a very simple insight. We began the process of understanding the problem. Before you can solve a problem, you have to deeply understand it. So we spent weeks and months studying this problem and verifying that nobody else had solved it until we could verify that no one else was actually trying to solve it. We did some brief, low-cost experiments to verify that it was technically feasible. And then we wrote ourselves a business plan. And we hired a “consultant”. However, this gentleman actually refers to himself as an insultant! Because he’s not paid to be kind, he’s paid to be blunt and helpful. This gentleman was instrumental in helping us sober-mindedly scope out what it would take to bring something like this to life. And of course, along the way, we learned about all sorts of technical challenges that were so deep into the crystal ball that we couldn’t possibly see them in the first few months. But that’s what gave way to Limelight parking structure flat lot lighting control system.
Joe Casabona 10:35
So there’s a lot of stuff you just said there that I’d love to unpack. But first… Limelight is a wireless outdoor lighting control system. You specifically mentioned parking lots and garages. They’re like smart lights? So what’s the main observation that you made?
“What if we could individually address all of the lights in a space? What if we could put a an eyeball on every single light? What if we could put a brain and a mouse on every single light? And what if we could make them behave intelligently so that when nobody’s around? they’re behaving appropriately. And then when somebody shows up? They’re incredibly brilliant and smart, and add new value.”
Gordon Stannis 11:04
We go to a lot of trade shows because we work in virtually every industry. Someone from our staff had just finished up a project for a client. It was focused on one space. So so they wanted to bring lighting control into the manufacturing space in a unique way that allowed you to individually address individual light fixtures in a million square foot warehouse environment or manufacturing environment. So that when manufacturing cells shift and change, you can actually turn on lights only where you want them. And you’re not forced to turn on breakers and big random blocks of 50 lights. That was the big idea. We just finished that project for a client, and one of our employees was flying back from Vegas at 0:00 dark early. They saw one of the 40,000 parking structures in North America that were lit up like a Christmas tree at 3:00 am in the morning, and he scratched his head. He said that seems kind of stupid. Why do we do stuff like that? Of course we light them up because they instill safety and confidence. No one wants to walk into a dim or dark parking structure ever. So they waste all sorts of energy keeping these things lit when there’s nobody inside? So the thought was, “is there a better way?”
What if we could individually address all of the lights in a space? What if we could put an eyeball on every single light? What if we could put a brain and a mouse on every single light? And what if we could make them behave intelligently so that when nobody’s around they’re behaving appropriately. Then when somebody shows up, they’re incredibly brilliant and smart and add new value. So that was the genesis of the limelight idea.
Joe Casabona 12:53
Fantastic, I’m sure we’ll save money for the people who own the parking structure and make patrons feel safe. You mentioned that you did a lot of research to see if it was feasible to make sure that no one was doing it. What was that process like?
Gordon Stannis 13:16
I would call that ad hoc. We were doing it between projects when we had time. One of the biggest challenges was to imagine parking structures. If we want light fixtures to communicate with each other and the entire parking structure itself. We have to punch through a lot of concrete and a lot of steel rebar. That’s a hostile environment for radio signal propagation. And then you throw in a bunch of sheet metal that’s there sometimes and not there at other times. That creates an unforgiving environment for radio frequency communication. So we had to make sure that it was feasible, and it was possible. That was the big technical hurdle. That’s the reason no one had done it before. For two decades our team has been working with every single radio protocol under the sun. Five years ago, we were running and managing the largest ZigBee radio mesh networks in North America as a result of the Limelight project. So once we determined that it was feasible, we basically just started building the system.
Joe Casabona 14:30
So that makes sense. Everybody has Wi Fi now. And if you have a concrete basement or something you’re going to need to add another access point in order to get internet in that basement. Signals can only travel so far through certain materials. The main research was to try to figure out; “Hey, can we put smart lights in a mostly concrete structure right?”
“you can see how adding a brain and adding sensors, and algorithms and intelligence into each individual light fixture allows every single one to be more efficient.”
Gordon Stannis 15:00
And then if we could, how much energy could we save? What are the things we could do. What other user experiences could we bring to life that people would value? We knew that one of the largest costs for a parking structure was variable energy usage. The real estate cost isn’t variable. The maintenance costs in general are pretty consistent, but the energy use is a dial that they can turn. So we started to calculate how far we could turn that down, while still being perceived as bright or brighter than any garage ever, at any time. And the beauty is, what we learned through this process is the outs of the perimeter of a parking structure at night must be well lit, the outside spaces need to be well lit, the core of a parking structure doesn’t need to be well lit, that can be stepped in, that could be at half brightness because there’s no one there. But as soon as someone goes in, then it has to be brought up to full brightness. And as soon as those people leave, you can bring it back down to a dim state doing that provides the opportunity to save a lot of money. And then you layer on things like daylight harvesting. So we’re not going to overdrive these lights in the morning on the east side of the building, that would be foolish, there’s plenty of light there at that time of day. And you can see how adding a brain and adding sensors, algorithms, and intelligence into each individual light fixture allows every single one to be more efficient. And they can also communicate with each other.
Joe Casabona 16:39
Wow. So let’s briefly talk about that. Before we get to the question. They can all talk to each other, right? There is somebody walking near a light fixture? A. They are walking at some sort of speed towards B. They’re talking to each other saying like, ‘Hey, B bring up the lights a little bit more now because somebody is about to enter your zone?” Is it something like that? Or is it something different?
Gordon Stannis 17:04
You nailed it? That’s exactly it. It’s a predictive analysis of where people are going. So there’s always light ahead of you. If you’re heading in a direction, we can predict where you’re going, and we’re going to light your path. And then it gets really interesting if say, and this does, unfortunately, happen in some garages. Let’s say somebody wants to has nefarious intent, and they want to commit a crime, they want to mug someone. They typically would knock out a light fixture outside of an elevator or a staircase. If somebody does that, with a Limelight product, that fixture is going to know what happened, it’s going to send a signal to the neighboring lights, and the building administrator to make people aware that that just happened. And we can have a variety of different behaviors that automatically take place, a distress call could be automatically made, and the surrounding lights that form a circle around that light that was just taken out. They can pulse. And that pulse is sort of a universal language to average human beings pedestrians walking around that something’s wrong. Putting people on alert.
Joe Casabona 18:12
Wow, that’s incredible! Because now you’re not only saving the owners of this structure money, but you’re making it safer for them. You’re alerting the authorities faster. So you’re making it safer for the people there. It sounds like you’re solving a multitude of problems by making this one simple observation, which I think is really cool.
“we help a client solve a specific problem, by bringing to life and IoT infrastructure, we actually uncover a multitude of opportunities that maybe they hadn’t even thought of before. Because again, when you put when you put eyes and a brain and a mouse on a product, it can do so many more things for you.”
Gordon Stannis 18:38
This is an IoT, Internet of Things, product. What we’ve learned over 13 years of designing such products and systems, because there’s really you’re bringing out an entire system and ecosystem to life, is that when we help a client solve a specific problem, by bringing to life an IoT infrastructure, we actually uncover a multitude of opportunities that maybe they hadn’t even thought of before. Because again, when you put eyes and a brain and a mouse on a product, it can do so many more things for you. It opens up your imagination. In fact, sometimes we jokingly refer to this as fracking. Like we’re fracking people’s imaginations. Stuff was already there. We’re just loosening it up and freeing it up. So that can be harvested. And you know, the people talk about innovation a lot, you read about it a lot, but at the core of innovation is curiosity, imagination, creativity, equals innovation. So IoT has this really amazing ability to allow people to imagine futures they hadn’t imagined yesterday.
Joe Casabona 21:04
Let’s get to the title question here. You say you’re giving these lights a brain and an eye. How did you build it? Let’s talk a little bit about the hardware side of it. And what kind of sensors you put in it, and then the software like neural network like side, because they’re all talking to each other.
Gordon Stannis 21:25
We call that a mesh network. There is a daisy chain communication pattern and it doesn’t have to connect to anyone’s IT system. What we’ve also learned in creating these innovative IoT infrastructures for a wide range of clients is that no IT organization wants any of our products to connect to their IT. They want this Battlestar Galactica firewall if you will.
We create these environments, and they communicate with the outside world cellularly. So there’s a cellular gateway. So whether it’s 5000, or 200 desks per floor in a campus building for a large organization that is service by Herman Miller. Those desks will all talk to each other, and then they will talk to the outside world via a cellular network. And each level of that building has its 200 desks, and they’re all talking outside that way. We refer to that as a mesh network, communicating with the outside world via gateway. So in this case, the way we started, and the way we after working on this system, for over eight years, very different business models, we started selling light fixtures with embedded radios.
Gordon Stannis 22:57
This was at a time when LEDs were becoming more popular, but they’re still very costly, they were still somewhat unreliable. But it was obvious and inevitable that the LED tsunami that was approaching us was going to land is going to hit the beach, but it wasn’t there yet. It wasn’t ready. So we launched with sealed fluorescent light fixtures with this brain and eyeball and everything embedded into them. And in what seemed like the blink of an eye, LEDs became reliable, they became cost-effective. They just landed a little faster than everybody thought they would. And so we shifted to only supporting LED light fixtures, and we shifted from creating our own to allowing every manufacturer all the large scale manufacturers like Philips, Hubble, and others like Cree to use our brain and our letting control system and sort of bolted on or build it in to their sophisticated led luminaires that we’re going into parking structures. Our business model completely shifted from being a fixture provider to just being an ecosystem provider. And we sold the radio module to the fixture companies.
Joe Casabona 24:24
There are some analogous things between that shift that you made and a similar shift that I made with selling my online courses, which was I was really only going to focus on creating one-off course sales. And then I realized that most of what can make money was course licensing, I generalize the course material and I licensed it to larger organizations, who then provide it as a free service to their customers or their employees. So it’s interesting to see kind of that shift based on where the market is going and how you can work with other strategic partners to evolve your business model.
Gordon Stannis 25:13
We call it a network sale. And we used to have to own it all. And we had all these big, large, heavy physical products that we’re shipping out the door. And we were arranging for their manufacturing shipping and, and overnight, shipping really small modules to manufacturers, and they would attach them themselves in their own factories, it completely shifted our business model. And instead of just having one light fixture, we had access to everybody’s best. The best and brightest… pun intended.
Joe Casabona 25:44
Then you could focus on what you do best, right? which is work on this ecosystem.
Gordon Stannis 25:52
Yeah, and what we learned through this whole process that we were way ahead of our time. The parking structure industry is not the earliest adopter technology-centric business model on the planet. These are big vending machines, and instead of bags of potato chips, who have SUVs and sedans and so forth. They weren’t thinking about how technologies other than capturing your cash via your credit card at the front door could revolutionize their business. So there was a lot of education required. My business partner, Bob has been to every trade show around parking in North America and beyond proselytizing the benefits before it actually caught traction.
Joe Casabona 26:49
Probably an industry that is very slow to move on things that don’t exactly that don’t directly affect their bottom line, right is in a super obvious way. Like capturing credit cards? Yes, we can collect money more easily. Because being ahead of your time, I can almost be a death knell sometimes for technology companies. So what was it like getting traction and breaking into that industry?
“But what we learned over time, was that maintenance story was equal, equally compelling, and in some cases more compelling.”
Gordon Stannis 27:25
It was really, really hard. Frankly, it was incredibly difficult. We’d show up at these trade shows, and people would walk over sales people for parking structure equipment would walk over and say, Boy, this looks really neat and everything. But you know, people aren’t asking for this yet. And to which we would say, Well, sometimes you can’t, you know, that old Henry Ford quote, “If he asked people what they wanted they’d say a faster horse.” Sometimes you gotta lead, you have to explain the art of the possible and open people’s eyes. And one thing that was at the top of our list at the beginning of this process that we thought would resonate with people was energy savings, we proved that we could save an enormous amount of energy. And that translates literally into dollars into the pockets of the people who own the structures. So we thought that was the number one compelling selling proposition for the system. And it’s very important. But what we learned over time, was that the maintenance story was equally compelling. In some cases more compelling. So imagine how maintenance used to work in, let’s say, you own 10 parking structures. Every day you had to roll a truck and pay human beings to drive through your parking structures to look for lights that were out. That’s how it used to work. Now, the way that works is someone gets a text message. And it tells them exactly where in what building and what fixture it is. And they just put one in their truck and they go and swap it up. It’s a revolutionary idea. And then you translate that into one of our largest jobs, which was all of the parking structures that feed into the Washington DC metro train lines. So we’re everybody parks their car and gets on a train and goes into DC. There are dozens of parking structures, there’s 14,000 lighting fixtures in those parking structures. Every single one of them has our lighting control system in it. So there’s 14,000 radios, and they’re always assessing the health of every light fixture and they’re reporting out their status that helped Philips sell that or obtain that job.
Joe Casabona 29:46
That makes a lot of sense. If you with the cost savings aspect. I don’t know what the scale is like but you know, if you say you could save 10% or 40% in your electric bill every month, versus, we are going to make your employees more efficient. I feel like that is a really good story to tell.
Gordon Stannis 30:12
You were actually pretty accurate with 40%. That is the type of savings that we’re looking at, sometimes larger, sometimes a little bit smaller, but it’s in that zone. But then when you think of a human being, and the cost of an employee. There’s a lot of costs associated with gainfully employing a human being. If you were traditionally hiring three people to do that job, and now you can get by with a half of a person who’s being deployed in a more useful way for a human being engaging their minds and their hands and so on, not just driving a car around looking at lighting fixtures. It gets really exciting.
Joe Casabona 31:01
Absolutely. Like you said, You don’t want to make the argument that you could put people out of work. But if you’re making savings for employees or the bottom line for like your employment budget, you can take that money and put it into more education for your employees so that they can do like you said, things that better engage the mind for example.
“More value add work, the last thing we want to do as a firm is reduce jobs. We want to improve jobs.”
Gordon Stannis 31:25
More value-added work, the last thing we want to do as a firm is to reduce jobs. We want to improve jobs.
Joe Casabona 31:33
Absolutely. That’s fantastic. Well, that’s incredibly interesting. You were ahead of your time, but now places like DC metro are using your ecosystem. What are your plans for the future? What is the next step in this Smart Lighting ecosystem?
“how can we add value with IoT and innovation to an industry that wasn’t asking for it may not think it’s ready for it, but could benefit dramatically from it.”
Gordon Stannis 31:54
So I’ve got two answers to your question, what are our plans for the future as it relates to Limelight? We successfully sold Limelight to the world leader in lighting control, which is Lutron. So now they currently own Limelight. What’s great about that is they have hundreds and hundreds of salespeople globally, and thousands of employees. And they’re all motivated and incented to incorporate Limelight parking, structure, lighting, and flat lot lighting and outdoor parking space lighting control into any job they bid. So imagine, Twisthink having a side business with three or four employees commissioning these systems in nearly every state in the country, including Hawaii. So we’re doing that as a really small team over a period of seven or eight years. And now there’s this industry leader who owns it, and has breadth and depth and reach that we could, you know, we could never rival and so you’ll see more Limelight capable garages and flat lots in the very near future because of that. So we don’t we personally don’t have plans for Limelight. Lutron has plans for Limelight, and we’re really excited about that process. But the real question for us is what’s next? You know, what’s, what’s Limelight 2.0? And I don’t mean, literally, a lighting control system? I mean, I mean, how can we add value with IoT and innovation to an industry that wasn’t asking for it may not think it’s ready for it, but could benefit dramatically from it.
Joe Casabona 33:48
It’s really cool to see that you successfully moved this business to someone who will absolutely be able to take really good care of it. And now you are moving on to solve the next problem, which is more to your core business, right, because you solve problems, you help your clients solve problems.
Gordon Stannis 34:10
Our core business is our insatiable curiosity to find problems that deserve to be solved. And then a systematic approach, combined with analytical rigor and imagination. To solve them in unique ways. We always say that there is no problem we can’t solve. The real question is, which ones deserve to be solved?
Joe Casabona 34:35
Based on that last statement you just made I have to ask you my favorite question; Do you have any trade secrets for us? Some good piece of advice, maybe based on what you just said about figuring out what the good ideas are the ones worth pursuing.
“the power of a great team is, is fundamental to solving any problem and building anything worthy of notice.”
Gordon Stannis 34:58
I can share some lessons learned. First of all, the power of a great team is fundamental to solving any problem and building anything worthy of notice. We have a pretty unique team that we’ve very intentionally designed and nurtured over time. Two-thirds of our staff are deep technologists, and one third are skilled industrial designers. So you take that unique skill set. That was strategic two decades ago, we merged what was typically thought of as two separate companies and we put them together, co-located in one space, not by the department, we sort of seat people, every other person. So the tech people are mixed in with the designers and the mechanical engineers and the electronic engineers, and we actually shift that space, every six months, everybody moves every six months. And again, it’s not by the department, we’re just moving people all the time because we want them to pick up this adjacent knowledge that happens in a highly collaborative space, we have no walls in our space. And the other lesson learned that I’d share with you and I think it’s incredibly difficult to put a price tag on it, but we know it adds value. And that is nurturing collaboration in any conceivable way. So in our spaces we have, every wall is a whiteboard. Whether it’s a brick wall with a giant 15-foot long personalized whiteboard attached to it, or if it’s drywall, it gets markerboard paint on it. So every square inch of our space is a place where you and I are a client and I are whoever we can just stop and sort of waving our hands and using words, yeah, we just hit it. And we start building these low-resolution prototypes on the wall. And you know, this was done in less Gow cave paintings thousands of years ago, and it and it, it continues. Now the faster you can get to an illustration, and get away from people sitting in chairs and stuffy rooms and using only words and a little bit of body language to communicate complicated ideas. We have no tolerance, culturally, no patience or tolerance for that at all. Everything is dynamic. And it’s we’re standing, we’re not sitting all of our conference rooms or stand up conference rooms to get rid of sit down conference rooms half a decade ago. And we’re just as a firm, whatever we can do, to foster to take down walls and to foster collaboration to accelerate innovation. We’ll do it. We’re shameless about it.
Joe Casabona 37:50
Wow, that’s incredible. I love not breaking up your employees by department, because you’re right, People can learn a lot from each other from other industries. That’s the big value of a co-working space. And as you were describing what you have, it made me think a lot about co-working spaces in general.
Gordon Stannis 38:14
Yes, yeah. There’s tremendous opportunity in co-working spaces, no walls, 15 foot live plants, lots of sun coming in through skylights, ceiling fans everywhere, ubiquitous Music Playing throughout the space, which acts as a more sophisticated version of noise cancellation than any kind of a waterfall hissing snake backdrop. And all those things add up. They make it a pleasant space to work in. And they just are naturally conducive to people’s imaginations and creativity.
Joe Casabona 38:48
Yeah, that’s, that’s fantastic. Well, Gordon, I want to thank you for your time today. Where can people find you?
Gordon Stannis 38:56
Twisthink.com and Twisthink is two words with the there’s only one middle T between the two words. That’s a common mistake. So yeah, go to our website, check us out. There’s a wide range of case studies that you can look at projects that we worked on in the past, you can see the kind of customers that we serve, and even some explanation of the processes that we use as well.
Joe Casabona 39:23
Awesome. Well, I will be sure to link that and several things that we talked about in the show notes today. Gordon, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Gordon Stannis 39:30
Hey, thank you very much. This was my pleasure. I appreciate it too.
Joe Casabona 39:32
Thanks so much to Gordon for joining us today. Talking about this sort of stuff. Stuff I don’t usually talk about on the show was incredibly interesting. And I liked what he said about you know, kind of explaining the art of the possible I think that was a really good quote. That’s why I decided to open up the show with it. So thanks again to him. You can find him over Twisthink.com Thanks so much to our sponsors, Ahoy, and Pantheon. If you want to learn more about them, head over to the show notes, you can find everything we talked about over at howibuilt.it/134. And if you want to download that free podcast workbook and launch your own podcast, you can head over to howibuilt.it/liftoff. Now, my question of the week for you is, what did you think was the most interesting part of Gordon’s story? You know, again, we don’t usually talk about this kind of stuff on how I built it. But I thought it was a very interesting story. I like the Smart Lighting, I like building the physical product and things like that. So let me know by emailing me, firstname.lastname@example.org or on Twitter @jcasabona. And again, thanks so much for listening. Until next time, get out there and build something.